Spring countdown discussion: Second base
Offseason rumors linked the Colorado Rockies to many free agent infielders, any of whom would have impacted this position in some way if they had signed.
Who’s starting: Yet, after all the shopping, the Rockies likely end up with the same second baseman to start 2010 as they finished 2009. Clint Barmes, who started 130 games at second base for the Rockies last season, took fire in June when new manager Jim Tracy moved him to the second spot in the order and made him the everyday starter. In June, Barmes batted .314 with four home runs and 19 RBI. But starting almost immediately after the All-Star break, Barmes went into an epic tailspin. He hit just .192 in July, .191 in August and went through a stretch when it seemed like all he could do was strike out or hit a home run (more than half of his season’s home run total came during that two-month stretch). His numbers bounced back slightly in September, but by then he was in the lineup for only one reason: his defense. The Rockies looked at Orlando Hudson, Orlando Cabrera, Jamey Carroll, Miguel Tejada and a handful of others either to back up Barmes as well as Ian Stewart at third base or push Barmes into a utility role. In the end, the Rockies settled on a utility infielder with little recent experience at second base.
Who’s backing up: Former Orioles third baseman Melvin Mora has played a total of 29 games at second base in his career and last played the position for three innings in 1996. The Rockies, however, feel Mora can handle the position. After a big year in 2008 (.285, 23 home runs, 104 RBI), Mora’s numbers dipped dramatically in 2009 (.260, 8, 48) and the Rockies were able to sign him to a bargain contract. At 38 years old, his years as a slugger are mostly behind him, but he provides solid right-handed help off the bench, a weakness for the Rockies in 2009. The question is whether he can handle second base defensively.
Who’s in the picture: Eric Young Jr., who pushed Barmes for playing time after being recalled in late August, was at times exciting, but ultimately hit just .246 and was caught stealing just as often as he successful stole a base. His defense is still his weakness. The Rockies, uncertain he could make it as an everyday second baseman, moved him to the outfield in the Arizona Fall League in 2008 and again just before he was called up in 2009. With the signing Mora and Jason Giambi, Young might start the season back in Triple-A Colorado Springs where he could continue to work on his defense at multiple positions while playing every day. Ian Stewart spent some time at second base in both 2008 and 2009 and could conceivably shift to second in a pinch, but his defense last season at third base was occasionally spectacular. Omar Quintanilla, who spent the entire 2009 regular season with the Rockies, seems to have found himself pushed aside. The Rockies signing additional insurance to a minor-league contract before spring training starts is not out of the question.
Who’s in the future: Where former first-round pick Chris Nelson ends up in 2010 will be interesting to see. Despite spending the past two seasons at Double-A Tulsa, Nelson played just 102 games over that span. Drafted as a shortstop, if he still has a future with the Rockies it will be as a second baseman. Unfortunately for Nelson, there is another shortstop behind him about to be converted to second base. Hector Gomez, who played just 83 games for Single-A Modesto in 2009 after missing nearly all of 2008, picked up his game late last season and finished the year in the Arizona Fall League. He won’t move to second base yet, but it’s only a matter of time before he does. He’s raw, but exciting. How he handles Double-A after being surrounded by some of baseball’s best prospects in the AFL will be a good gauge of his future. Daniel Mayora, once considered a top prospect for the Rockies, is about to get lost in the shuffle after an average year at Double-A.
Discuss: While the Rockies were settling their situations at catcher and late-inning relief for the next couple seasons by signing Chris Iannetta, Rafael Betancourt and Huston Street to multiyear deals, the team locked up Barmes for just a single year. The Rockies are likely to revisit this situation again after the season. But first, they must get through 2010. So what would you rather see the Rockies do at second base in the short term:
– Put up with Barmes’ offensive ups and downs to keep his glove on the field?
– Risk Young’s glove in the field to keep his speed in the lineup?
– Take a shot at making an everyday second baseman out of Mora and hope he regains a bit of his 2008 form?
– Put Mora in his comfort zone at third and move Stewart to second base?
– Cross their fingers and hope Nelson or Gomez puts it all together in a hurry?
– Something else?
Coming Friday: Third base
With acquiring Felipe Lopez and Orlando Hudson out of the question, the best option going forward is having Clint Barmes as the everyday second baseman. He has worked extensively this offseason with his swing, and despite the terrible OBP, his slugging puts him as a slightly below-average bat. Considering he is defensive wizard and will be batting out of the eight-hole, that’s not the glaring weakness it seems to be.
For 2010 Barmes has to be the starting 2B which is fine. His defensive skills outweigh his weak offensive skills. Going forward, Nelson and/or Gomez have to step in. Hopefully Nelson is ready in 2011 and Barmes can resign as a infield utility guy which is what he really is at this point.
Second base is one of the real conundrum positions for this team. Barmes looks like the short term solution, and his plus defense combined with his apparent power is really not that bad of a solution for one year. If he can figure out how to be patient at the plate, and draw more walks and hittable pitches that would be great. He seems to be a great fit in the clubhouse, and is a teammate everyone wants to be around. At least from the outside of the team looking in. (As an aside except for a very select few people who write and read at this site none of us really know these guys, and we really don’t know what kind of guys these are)
Barmes is really a catch-22 sort of guy. You love his defense, but when he gets up to bat you just cringe when you watch him go fishing for awful pitches. Next year if and when we have a new starter we will miss Barmes’s defensive acumen. I just hope whover replaces him will make up for it at the plate.
For the moment I think that Clint’s our guy. He is a strong defender and works well with Tulo. Let’s hope the OBP comes up from last year. If he’s our worst hitter, and Chris, Ian, and Hawpe have better seasons than last year, than we’ll be OK and can tolerate one weak link if Clint’s OBP doesn’t increase from last year.
It seems that, barring the trade of an outfielder or an injury, that EY Jr. starts the year back in AAA to work on his defense and all around game.
I’m guessing it will be Barmes. Tracy loves good defense and Barmes is the best defensive 2B the Rocks have right now.
I stated several times last year and I’ll state it again, I believe the defense has shaved at least a full run off the ERA of the pitchers. Defense is especially critical at Coors field because of the wide open expanses of the outfield. If the pitchers can keep the ball down, grounders can turn into a lot of quick outs when all four of the infielders can be considered in the running for a gold glove. If they do get it up, Fowler and Gonzales can run down a lot of balls in the air.
I’m not thrilled about Barmes, but he does play plus defense and seemed to pick up some power last year. Having a double-play combo as reliable as him and Tulo with all the ground-ball pitchers on the staff is nice. Still, a sub-.300 OBP is a huge problem, especially with a team that plays at Coors Field. Mora’s a decent option as his back-up, and I hope EY Jr. can improve enough at Colorado Springs that he’s the clear number one guy by the end of the season.
I like Barmes as the everyday second baseman roughly 3/4 of the time. I know Stewart can be phenomenol with the glove, but if EY doesn’t make the roster I like Stewart as the back up 2b and then put Mora at third if and only if Mora is 2008 form. I don’t believe he would have as much range at 2b that Stewart would. What’s the splits for Mora hitting lefties vs. righties?
Make mine EY2 (I realize that’s the minority opinion here) with EY2, Fowler, and Cargo at the top of the order. Not sure what EY2 has done to deserve his lack luster defensive ratings here, but the offensive speed more than makes up for it?
Watching Barmes constantly chase the low and outside (by at least a foot) pitch is just too much for me! 0 fer the playoffs with no hits AND no walks in fourteen poor plate appearances – that’s not going to get it done regardless of his defense.
Rich M, hah! I know exactly what you mean about Barmes swinging at low and away pitches. I watch the game and know the pitcher is going to throw it there and Barmes is going to swing. Every time it seems. Ouch. You would think if he could learn to lay off that one pitch his batting would take a huge upswing….
Some guys can’t lay off the high fastball, he can’t lay off the low and away.
I think Barmes will have a good season. I am still some what old fashioned in the sense that a second baseman doesn’t have to be a strong hitter to be a good player or valuable. Barmes is a strong defender, so even if his bat doesn’t impress you he still has value on the team. That being said i do believe this will be his last year as a Rockie. I think Nelson or Gomez will be able to produce as much as Barmes following this season and at a price that is much more affordable.
No one else is really buying the EY2 option – so let me give it one last try. EY2 has been an All-Star at each and every level over the last four years – A, Adv A, AA, and AAA. Still, I understand that doesn’t guarantee big league success, so try this…
Coming up through the minors, EY2′s hitting was very comparable to a guy you all know – D Fowler – for the same level in the same year on the same teams. So would you take as a rookie .265 ave, .340 OBP, 10 HRS and 40 steals along with a few extra errors at second base?
BTW Barmes hit .209 in the second half last year. It would take over 20 extra errors by EY2 to offset the difference in OBP, assuming the HR and steal differences offset.
Barmes for sure to begin season. Let Mora spell him from time to time. L/R splits?
Give EY a bunch of AB in the Springs.
If things do not pan outas a team and it seems like you need to shake things up by changing gears, you can alway put together a go go run run offense with EY, Cargo, Dex. Remember the Go Go White Sox???
Watching Barmes play is a roller coaster. Stellar defense, some power once in awhile…but it’s frustrating to see his butt in Longmont before he completes his swing/miss. Had him on my fantasy team and had to let him go. Don’t know that we need the steals so much from EY with Cargo and Fowler creating havoc at the top of the order, but an average success rate of moving someone ahead on base from the bottom of the order would be nice, too. Quintanilla can be streaky but is a nice backup. Mora probably makes more sense at other positions…maybe second every once in awhile. Leave Stewart at third as there is no reason to try to move him around…simply too much glove/presence to leave third…but, again, the bat has to come around. I guess I’m saying that Baylor needs to move into Barmes’ house to make him improve and the Rox will need to move on if the progression isn’t there.
Just a follow-up after I read back through the previous postings. Trip hit in on the head…at Coors Field, defense…especially up the middle is key. Think of the plays that Barmes made at second, as well as in shallow right-center. He deserves the chance at the start of 2010 just based on that defense, some power and the hope for increased production in the other areas.
Rich M,
Fowler is not a fair comp to EY. Fowler just started switch hitting for the first time in his life in 2005, so he spent the first few years doing something completely foreign in 70+% of his at-bats. His LH swing still shows signed of amateurism. Moreover, you can’t go solely on statistics in the minors. Joe Koshansky, Matt Miller and Ryan Shealy have ripped up the minors, while Matt Holliday and Carlos Gonzalez did nothing to catch your eye before hitting the majors. Scouts all along knew Fowler was special, while Young’s ceiling was as a bench role player.
Defense is so important in Coors Field, but it’s very difficult to quantify. Statistics don’t really measure how a single error can send an inning spriraling out of control, but anyone who has sat through games at Coors Field has witnessed it. Even in the humidor era where home runs are less frequent, the vast outfield allows too many fluke hits to give a team many extra outs. I’m inclined to side with defense up to a point. As was noted in the thread about the catchers, though, the Rockies’ 5-8 spots in the lineup dried up in the second half last season. If the guys around him are hitting, Barmes’ defense is certainly work the risk at the plate. At some point, though, he needs to realize that pitchers are going to keep throwing him pitches off the plate until he stops swinging at them.
If EY has a strong spring I feel he should make the team. After all he was on the playoff roster. He gives even more depth in the OF and the infield plus a late inning base stealing threat. This would make Giambi the odd man out which is unfortunate but i think it would make for a more complete team as Hawpe could fill in at first and free up playing time for Spilly and Smith. If EY has some consistent games strung together i think he could excel and start to challenge Barmes at 2nd.
Clint should be the starter. I doubt anyone remembers the post-season and his (offensive) ineffectiveness more than he does. He has shown the ability and the desire to make the shift from SS to 2B. EY2 lacks maturity at the big league level. If Mora doesn’t work out or if he or Barmes gets hurt, he’ll get the call up. His versatility means he won’t spend too long in the Springs before he’s back in the Show.
It was disappointing to see Barmes struggle the way he did. He was coming out of his spikes swinging for pitches out of the strike zone after the All Star break. I would look for him to address those issues and make adjustments to his approach at the plate. I hope he tries to slap the ball more, and hit to the gaps instead of for the fences. Barmes deserves a chance, but should be on a short leash.
I really like Stewart at 3B. He plays the line as well as anyone, and he will only get better. He’s got an accurate arm, and his defense/range is much better than Atkins. His size would make a tough adjustment to 2B. He reminds me of Chipper Jones, with his athleticism and ability to throw across the diamond.
I was really hoping the Rockies would have made a move on Mark DeRosa. Now we get to see him playing for the Giants. Ugh! He would have been the perfect utility/starter infielder. I still think we have a great infield, defensively. How well Barmes and Stewart do at the plate are the biggest unknowns.
Who would I go with in 2010 at 2nd? Well, there is really only 2 answers here. Either Barmes or Eric Young Jr. Now, I will say this: EY2 will be starting in 2010…..possibly in Colorado Springs. He’s at the point in his career where he needs the starts and reps.
Mora, is not a starter at this point in his career. While moving from the AL East should help him, at age 38 we should be seeing huge age declines in his production. Stewart is a 3rdbaseman, and any scenario of Stewart at 2nd, really is Mora & Stewart, which is the same as Stewart & Mora. Nelson and Gomez are too far off to be factors in 2010, (though a big year by Gomez and 2011 is not out of the question). So that leaves Barmes vs Eric Young Jr.
I would go with Eric Young Jr. I’ve seen him play at Colorado Springs. He has great range. He hustles. He’s hit well at every level coming up, so really not much to prove hitting wise in the minors. His defensive issues are mainly the turn on a double play and his hands. I don’t think his defense is so bad, that as a whole he’s worse than Barmes as a total player, who after the All-star break was terrible at the plate. (and I’m being nice calling Barmes’ hitting “terrible”)
For me EY2 defense+offense is greater than > Barmes defense+offense. Again, it’s the issue with the 5-9 hitters as a group. Iannetta we all hope improves some, but Olivo is not a real option at catcher, so we are stuck with whatever Iannetta brings for better or worse. Stewart is going to play either way, as this will be his make or break year as his only replacement is Mora who I point out is not a starter at this point in his career…..that really leaves just 2nd where you can get an offensive upgrade. And the bottom of the Rockies line up, needs an offensive upgrade…..so EY2
For those of you that have read a scouting report that says Eric Young Jr will be no more than a utility player and thus you dismiss out of hand the possibility of EY2 as a major league starter, I’d point out the same was said of his father, of Clint Barmes, and of Matt Holliday, and many other players that have ended up starting in the bigs. While guys like Ryan Shelly was a can’t miss starter.
And if EY2 makes the team…that means either the Rockies trade an OF’er or Giambi or Mora is out. Really the only position battle for the Rockies in ST will be who is the 25th guy..and that will be hugely influenced by the Eric Young Jr. vs Clint Barmes 2ndbase question.
I have nothing to add to this topic I am only joining in to thank Steve for this “around the horn” project it is great to be able to voice/listen to everyones opinion.
Barmes should be the starter definitely. His defense is great and provides plenty of power. If he could somehow be a little more consistent by swinging at strikes more often instead of balls, I think Barmes would be a long term solution at the position. But you can’t have a guy hit less than .200 the last 3 months. He has to find the consistency.
I’m not real high on EY2. I think he can be a utility guy in the future providing great speed late in games. I just don’t see him being an everyday player.
Hopefully, Gomez or Nelson will stay healthy, figure it out and be ready for a shot in 2011. Or Barmes improves his consistency, then I have no problem with him there long term.
I think Barmes will be fine in 2010 but I was sad when Tracy didn’t pull him in the 09 playoffs when he was obviously down mentally and wasn’t going to get a hit.
There’s no way you beat the Phillies when you’re basically giving up a sure out every time your 8-hole comes to the plate. With the season on the line, pull the guy who is in the major slump and put in Stewart, who pretty much didn’t even get to play in the postseason.
I know the Phillies were heavy on left handed pitching, but the way things were going in that series I would have given Steward the ABs over Barmes.
Tracy did a GREAT job with the team last year, but I didn’t understand sticking with Barmes in games where every AB counted.
Used the D Fowler comparable above because that is fresh in everyones mind, but I actually did some research and found a way better comparable – the oiginal Eric Young. His minor league stats are almost exactly the same as EY2, whoalso played second bae:
AVE/OBP/SLG/OPS/FLD%
Career Minor Leagues:
EY1 .295/.388/.392/.780/.954 4 seasons
EY2 .293/.385/.416/.801/.976 6 seasons
First Full MLB Season (EY2 Projected):
EY1 .269/.355/.353/.708/.962
EY2 .265/.350/.375/.825/.970 I’ll still take this over Barmes!
For the record EY1 was an All Star and played from 1992 to 2006 in the big leagues while finishing his career with the following line: .283/.359/.390/.749/..976 …so that’s what I would project if EY2 is given a full time second base job.
Where are you getting those projections, Rich? Or are they your own? In my opinion, fielding percentage is more-or-less useless but the point remains that EY’s a substantially worse defender than Barmes. At Coors Field, with a heavy ground-ball staff, that matters. That said, I can’t stand watching Barmes hit and I’d rather see Young on the roster than (say) Jason Giambi so he could fill in for late-inning running and hitting situations.
Ryan
The idea was to extrapolate a likely outcome for EY2′s first full MLB season based on what similar hitters (Fowler and EY1) had done in the minors and majors. So yes the projection of EY2 for his first full major league season is mine but it is 99% statistically based with some rounding but certainly not just some wishfull thinking on my part.
Fielding percenatge can be misleading, however we don’t have a whole lot else to go on, except the so called expert opinions. EY1 had a fine MLB career mostly at second baseas as a 45th round draft pick, so the experts have sometimes been wrong. Based on EY2 in the 30th round he should never have made AAA and definitely not been a four time minor league allstar.
Since most of the posters on this site might have seen EY2 make exactly “1″ error at second base in his one month in MLB and for that matter his entire professional baseball career. That’s hardly a large enough sample size to base an opinion on his ability to be a starting second baseman in MLB.
Still don’t understand the majority opinion here (and yes I too have read that Barmes is a nice guy in the clubhouse!) that is to block EY2 based almost entirely on some perceived notion of what Barmes’ defensive benefits might be. How many Gold Gloves does Barmes have anyway? Statiscally speaking no one here has come close to justifying Barmes over EY2 at second base – in hitting or defense – in wins and losses, which is what I care about.
Using the same defense at all costs logic Matt Holiday should be benched for the fourth SL Cardinal outfielder, because that outfielder is a somewhat better defender in left field than Matt is – exaggeration just to make the point.
DanO – EY2 has nothing left to prove in AAA – either play him or trade him while he still has some value – but I am guessing DanO already knows this.
Barmes can be painful to watch at times but with solid power and a great glove he is fine at the bottom of the order. Not every guy in your lineup is going to be great offensively and with Tulo’s big bat at short, it frees up room for Barmes to be the defensive specialist. If EY Jr. develops, start to work him in and see how it goes. For the Love of God, do not play Mora everyday. I follow the O’s a little bit and he was dreadful last year, especially as the season wore on. As least Barmes can get a hold of one now and then, I think Mora hit like one homer in the entire second half.